View Full Version : Who is Jesus?

05-02-2004, 06:19 AM
Who is Jesus?

Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the second person in the "Holy trinity." However, the very Bible which is used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for doctrine within Christianity clearly belies this claim. We urge you to consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are not drawn out of context:

1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
When speaking of the day of judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." Mark 13:32, and Matt 24:36. But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the day of judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19. Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." St. John 5:30. But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." St. John 20:17. He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt." Matt 26:36-39. Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen God at any time." St. John 1:18. '"Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37. He also said in St. John 4:24. "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." St. John 8:42. Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done" and in St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which hath sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?

My brother or sister, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.

If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

What is the word of God about Jesus:

A. Regarding Sonship of Jesus:
That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing he but says to it "Be", and it is. (Qur'an 19:34,35).

And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful a son; and it behoves not the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant (Qur'an 19:88-93).

Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, "Be", and he was. (Qur'an 3:59).

People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers. and say not, 'Three', Refrain, better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be on Him - that He should have a son! To Him belongs that which is in the heavens and on the earth, God suffices for a guardian. (Qur'an 4:171)

B. Regarding Jesus being God:
And when God said. 'O Jesus son of Mary,did you say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God?" He Said, 'To You be Glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what You did command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You

05-02-2004, 09:40 AM
you wrote the following:
Who is Jesus?

Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the second person in the "Holy trinity." However, the very Bible which is used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for doctrine within Christianity clearly belies this claim.

Upon your words, I can assume that the bible mentioned nothing about Jesus being God! and that he's just a man who had message from God the One.
Also, the Quran said the same thing about Jesus being a man only. is that right?

So you're now has to choose between two ways:
1- what you've said is true.
2- what you've said is wrong.

If the first case: then the question will be, why should i follow the Quran and become a muslim, since my bible says the same as your quran? i should, in this case, just follow what the Bible teachs me and that's enough.

If the second case: then you're telling us *false* and wrong information about the bible and what it's saying.
that will show us that you're not qualified to tell us what to do since you are a lier and you don't know what the bible says.

So which case would you choose, 1 or 2 ?

Waiting for your reply


06-02-2004, 01:00 PM
I have done what you said and I went back to the New Testament and read what it says about Jesus and what Jesus says about Himself.

Matt Ch. 3 verse 16-17 "As soon as he was baptized, Jesus came up from the water. At once the heavens opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God come down like a dove and rest upon him. At the same time a voice from Heaven was heard, "This is my Son, the Beloved; he is my Chosen One." Also see Mk 1:9, Lk 3:2 and Jn 1:29

Matt. Ch. 17 ver. 5 "Peter was still speaking when a bright cloud covered them in its shadow, and a voice from the cloud said "This is my Son, the Beloved, my Chosen One. Listen to Him." Also see Mk 9:2 and Lk 9:28.

Matt Ch. 26 ver. 63-65 "So the High Priest then stood up and said to him "In the name of the living God, I command you to tell us: Are you the Christ, the Son of God? " Jesus answered "It is just as you say. I tell you more; from now on, you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Most Powerful God and coming on the clouds of Heaven." Also see Mk 14:53 and Lk 22:54.

Luke Ch. 10 verse 17-22 The seventy-two disciples returned full of joy. They said, "Lord, even the demons obey us when we called on your name." Then Jesus replied "I saw Satan fall like lightening from Heaven. You see, I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the Enemy, so that nothing will harm you; rejoices that your names are written in heaven."

At that time, Jesus was filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit and said "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and made them known to little children.

"Yes Father, such had been given all things by my Father, so that no one knows the Son except the Father, and know one knows the Father except the Son and he to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

John Ch. 8 verse 12 Jesus spoke to them again, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have light and life."

John Ch. 10 verse 27-34 "My sheep hear my voice and I know them; they follow me and I give them eternal life. They shall never perish an no one will ever steal them from me. What the Father has given me is stronger than everything and no one can snatch it from the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

John Ch. 12 verse 44-48 "He who believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. And he who sees me, sees him who sent me. I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness."

"if anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am no the one to condemn him; for I have come, not to condemn the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and does not receive my word, already has a judge; the very word I have spoken will condemn him on the last day."

You deny that the Trinity exists. Please consider this passage. Mark Chapter 3 verse 28. Truly, I say to you, every sin will be forgiven of humankind, every insult to God, however numerous. But whoever slanders the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven: he carries the guilt of his sin forever." There are two types of sin, one forgiveable, the other unforgiveable. Two different sins, two separate Persons. One Divinity.

There are those who will say 1+1+1 + 3, Three Gods. If you are going to follow that logic then to be honest you must be open to the logic of 1x1x1 = 1. Three Persons, One Divinity.

Also, The basic structure of water is H2O. Its essense is the atominc structure. Water can exist in three different states, solid, liguid and gase. It is still considered water but in a different form.

Jesus said "I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Light. He who believes in me shall have Eternal Life."

Muslims everywhere turn to Jesus Christ. Pray to God that He will show you the Truth that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World. Pray the prayer that Jesus gave you.

Our Father who art in heaven hallowed by thy Name, thy Kingdom come, thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us, and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.

He Loves you and wants you to be His children. Not a slave in submission.

I will continue to pray for your conversion.

06-02-2004, 01:24 PM
I would like to make one more comment.

The last section in the author's thread referred to a quote from the Qura'n regarding Jesus and His mother being considered gods.

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the only two Churches that honor and reverence the Virgin Mary (I don't know whether the Coptic Church does).

As a practicing Catholic-Christian, I know for a fact that divinity has nevery been attributed to the Virgin Mary. The dogma and theology of the Catholic Church does not teach that she is Divine.

The Virgin Mother has never been worshipped nor deemed to warrant worship as God. Because she bore Jesus, she is honored and greatly respected for this but is not considered divine.

The Qura'n is very clear that Jesus is not God. So when Jesus makes that statement about he and his mother being worshipped as gods, it is an incorrect statement.

Can you tell why Allah would allow a mistake to be in the Qura'n if it is suppose to be without error?

06-02-2004, 02:30 PM
كاتب الرسالة الأصلية : PAC2DOC
I would like to make one more comment.

(I don't know whether the Coptic Church does).

As a practicing Catholic-Christian, I know for a fact that divinity has nevery been attributed to the Virgin Mary. The dogma and theology of the Catholic Church does not teach that she is Divine.

The Virgin Mother has never been worshipped nor deemed to warrant worship as God.

No church claimes that Mary is a god
but in Arabia, back during Muhammad's time there was a heresey called the "Mariamm's hersey" who were deviated from the true faith andbeleived that the trinity includes the Father,, Jesus and Mary
and ofcourse, Muhammad of Arabia thought that this is what Christians believe so he attacked the trininty based on that


08-02-2004, 03:19 AM
The reason behind Islam's rejection of the concept of the triune God is a misunderstanding of the real meaning behind it. It seems that Islam's understanding of the Trinity was derived from a Christian heresy which existed in Arabia at the time of Mohammed.


البدعة المريمية

08-02-2004, 05:05 PM
I would like to reply to those passages in the Bible that the Muslim visitor sited.

God is All Knowing.
You site Mark 13:32. "....not even the Son, only the Father knows...."

Some are confused by this. Does this mean that Jesus in not God as the Father is? When Jesus speaks of the Father and the Son, he speaks of himself with his human consciousness in relationship to the Father. God's infinite knowledge cannot be encompassed by the human mind of Jesus. Refer to Luke 3:21 and Mark 6:1. It is the Christian belief that Jesus is fully human and fully Divine.

God the Father can communicate to Jesus prophecies. God may not have fixed the time yet and so Jesus nor the angels know it.

As Jesus commands us to build the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, our willingness to participation in God's plan undoubtedly plays a role in when the end comes.

God All Powerful
You site St. John 5:19.
First, the passage you site actually reads Jesus said to them, "Truly , I assure you, the Son cannot do anything by himself, but only what he sees the Father do. And whatever he does, the Son also does. The Father loves the Son and shows him everything he does; and he will show him even greater things than these so that you will be amazed." (Further reading leads you into Ch. 6 where Jesus multiplies the fishes and loaves).

If you read further, you will see that Jesus does have the Power.

Verse 21 states As the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so the Son gives life to whom HE WILLS. Jesus is stating here that he can raise the dead when he WILLS it. This is apart from God.

God does not need a God
You site St.John 20:17. The background is after Jesus' Resurrection but He has not ascended to the Father. Jesus is reiterating that no one comes to the Father except through him. I indicated in a previous post.

Jesus does not need a god. Jesus is also revealing the great desire which filled his life. He came from God and must return to His Father. This is the "greatest love in world" to be reunited with God our Father. All the love that Jesus has for us is but a manifestation of that other love, because God the Father is the fountain and goal of all Love. See Matt. 19:16.

As for the Lord's Prayer, Jesus is teaching his disciples how to pray to God. In the Greek, Jesus uses the word ABBA which can be translated as "Daddy." It has a more affectionate and intimate tone. God our Father wants to have a relationship with us as HIS children, not as a submissive slave.

If you read further in Chapter 20 you will find verse 26-28. Eight days later, the disciples were in the house again and Thomas was with them. Despite the locked doors Jesus appeared and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and see my hand; stretch out your hand and put it in my side. Doubt no longer and believe."

Thomas then said, "You are my Lord and my God." Jesus replied, "You believe because you see me, don't you? Happy are those who believe although they do not see."

Jesus had an opportunity to rebuke Thomas; He did not. He confirmed what Thomas had confessed.

That exchange also challenges the claim in the Qur'an that Jesus was not crucified. Jesus instructs Thomas to examine his hands and place his finger in the holes and to place his hand in his side. These wounds correspond with what took place at the crucifixion. If Jesus had not been crucified, why did he ask Thomas to examine his wounds?

For a more indepth comparison of Christianity and Islam, I would recommend the book "Answering Islam" by Geisler and Saleem.

Mirage Guardian
09-02-2004, 04:13 AM
Just Ckick me (http://www.answering-islam.org/Who/index.html)

09-02-2004, 10:21 AM

I liked the language of the verses that you have posted in your replies, it is sample and understandable, I would like to ask about a version of translation in easy English for the old testimony in particular, if you have any suggestion, please inform me.
This demand is for all other brothers, Yaweeka, Mirage guardian, knowjesus_knowlove. Thanks and peace be with you all.

10-02-2004, 03:27 PM
Dear Sammy, please check ( Good News Bible, Today's English Version)

10-02-2004, 06:50 PM
يا سلام يا عم سامى

بص يا عم
روح الموقع ده

download this program

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أشر على أية كلمة فى أية آية ستجد معناها يظهر لك مباشرة

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ياللا : ها نشوفك إمتى بأة؟

10-02-2004, 09:03 PM
ياللا : ها نشوفك إمتى بأة؟ (http://)

Maybe it is the time to tell you the truth guys, I study to take the TOEFL exam, which will allow me to participate in study for Master degree on American law. I discovered that I only need twenty credits to have the right to apply for the bar exam, I know it is a long way to go, but I am retired from any work, so it is a useful way to spend my time.
If everything will go as planed, I will attend the law school this fall for one year, but I do not think that any thing could isolate me from this site and the only friends I know.
I don’t dare to ask anyone to pray for me, but I appreciate if anyone do so voluntarily.

Good bless you all.

09-05-2009, 08:53 AM