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The Joker
01-04-2008, 01:11 AM
"If I were a Muslim I would let you know," Barack Obama has said, and I believe him. In fact, he is a practicing Christian, a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ. He is not now a Muslim.

But was he ever a Muslim or seen by others as a Muslim? More precisely, might Muslims consider him a murtadd (apostate), that is, a Muslim who converted to another religion and, therefore, someone whose blood may be shed?


Barack Obama at the Smoky Row Coffee Shop in Oskaloosa, Iowa.

The candidate for president of the United States has delivered two principal statements in reply. His campaign website carries a statement dated Nov. 12 with the headline, "Barack Obama Is Not and Has Never Been a Muslim," followed by: "Obama never prayed in a mosque. He has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian." Then, on Dec. 22, in the unlikely setting of the Smoky Row Coffee Shop in Oskaloosa, Iowa, as he munched on pumpkin pie and drank tea with four locals, Obama provided more detail took on this topic than before. When asked to explain his Muslim heritage, he replied:

My father was from Kenya, and a lot of people in his village were Muslim. He didn't practice Islam. Truth is he wasn't very religious. He met my mother. My mother was a Christian from Kansas, and they married and then divorced. I was raised by my mother. So, I've always been a Christian. The only connection I've had to Islam is that my grandfather on my father's side came from that country. But I've never practiced Islam. … For a while, I lived in Indonesia because my mother was teaching there. And that's a Muslim country. And I went to school. But I didn't practice. But what I do think it does is it gives me insight into how these folks think, and part of how I think we can create a better relationship (hrt: with the Middle East and that would help make us safer is if we can understand how they think about issues.

These statements raise two questions: What is Obama's true connection to Islam and what implications might this have for an Obama presidency?

Was Obama Ever a Muslim?
"I've always been a Christian," said Obama, focusing on his own personal lack of practice of Islam as a child to deny any connection to Islam. But Muslims do not see practice as key. For them, that he was born to a line of Muslim males makes him born a Muslim. Further, all children born with an Arabic name based on the H-S-N trilateral root (Hussein, Hassan, and others) can be assumed to be Muslim, so they will understand Obama's full name, Barack Hussein Obama, to proclaim him a born Muslim.

More: family and friends considered him as a child to be Muslim. In "Obama Debunks Claim About Islamic School," Nedra Pickler of the Associated Press wrote on January 24, 2007, that

Obama's mother, divorced from Obama's father, married a man from Indonesia named Lolo Soetoro, and the family relocated to the country from 1967-71. At first, Obama attended the Catholic school, Fransiskus Assisis, where documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim )noP), the religion of his stepfather. The document required that each student choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when registering – Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant.

Asked about this, Obama communications director Robert Gibbs responded by indicating to Pickler that

he wasn't sure why the document had Obama listed as a Muslim. "Senator Obama has never been a Muslim."

Two months later, Paul Watson of the Los Angeles Times (available online in a Baltimore Sun reprint) reported that the Obama campaign had retreated from that absolute statement and instead issued a more nuanced one: "Obama has never been a practicing Muslim." The Times looked into the matter further and learned more about his Indonesian interlude:

His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both schools he attended. That registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion class.

The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. "We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi. … Obama's younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only "for big communal events," not every Friday.hg-t

Recalling Obama's time in Indonesia, the Times account contains quotes that Obama "went to the mosque," and that he "was Muslim."

Summarized, available evidence suggests Obama was born a Muslim to a non-practicing Muslim father and for some years had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father. At some point, he converted to Christianity. It appears false to state, as Obama does, "I've always been a Christian" and "I've never practiced Islam." The campaign appears to be either ignorant or fabricating when it states that "Obama never prayed in a mosque."

Implications of Obama's Conversion
Obama's conversion to another faith, in short, makes him a murtadd.

That said, the punishment for childhood apostasy is less severe than for the adult version. As Robert Spencer points out, "according to Islamic law an apostate male is not to be put to death if he has not reached puberty (cf. ‘Umdat al-Salik o8.2; Hidayah vol. II p. 246). Some, however, hold that he should be imprisoned until he is of age and then ‘invited' to accept Islam, but officially the death penalty for youthful apostates is ruled out."

On the positive side, were Obama prominently charged with apostasy, that would uniquely raise the issue of a Muslim's right to change religion, taking a topic on the perpetual back-burner and placing it front and center, perhaps to the great future benefit of those Muslims who seek to declare themselves atheists or to convert to another religion.

But would Muslims seeing Obama as a murtadd significantly affect an Obama presidency? The only precedent to judge by is that of Carlos Saúl Menem, the president of Argentina from 1989 to 1999. The son of two Muslim Syrian immigrants and husband of another Syrian-Argentine, Zulema Fátima Yoma, Menem converted to Roman Catholicism. His wife said publicly that Menem left Islam for political reasons—because Argentinean law until 1994 required the president of the country to be a member of the Church. From a Muslim point of view, Menem's conversion is worse than Obama's, having been done as an adult. Nonetheless, Menem was not threatened or otherwise made to pay a price for his change of religion, even during his trips to majority-Muslim countries, Syria in particular.

It is one thing to be president of Argentina in the 1990s, however, and another to be president of the United States in 2009. One must assume that some Islamists would renounce him as a murtadd and would try to execute him. Given the protective bubble surrounding an American president, though, this threat presumably would not make much difference to his carrying out his duties.

More significantly, how would more mainstream Muslims respond to him, would they be angry at what they would consider his apostasy? That reaction is a real possibility, one that could undermine his initiatives toward the Muslim world.

Source: http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5286

The Joker
01-04-2008, 01:15 AM
the question I've been asking myself about, why he would lie about practicing Islam?
and is a liar fit for US presidency ?

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/tylerdurden/fightclub/joker_laugh.gif

Zagal
24-08-2008, 11:42 PM
Who is Barack Obama ?, US presidential candidate


Probable U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama was born in
Honolulu , Hawaii , to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM from
Nyangoma-Kogel , Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white ATHIEST from Wichita ,
Kansas.

Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii. When Obama was two
years old, his parents divorced. His father returned to Kenya. His
mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia. When
Obama was 6 years old, the family relocated to Indonesia. Obama
attended a MUSLIM school in Jakarta. He also spent two years in a
Catholic school.

Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He is
quick to point out that, 'He was once a Muslim, but that he also
attended Catholic school.'

Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear that Obama's
introduction to Islam came via his father, and that this influence was
temporary at best. In reality, the senior Obama returned to Kenya soon
after the divorce, and never again had any direct influence over his
son's education.

Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann Dunham,
introduced his, stepson to Islam. Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi
school in Jakarta.

Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim
terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world. Since it
is politically expedient to be a CHRISTIAN when seeking Major public
office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined the United
Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim background.


ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into office he DID NOT use the
Holy Bible, but instead the Koran.

Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential
candidacy.
The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US from the inside
out, what better way to start than at the highest level - through the
President of the United States, one of their own!!!!

Please forward to everyone you know. Would you want this man leading
the free workd......?


If you do not ever forward anything else, please forward this to all
your contacts.........this is very scary to think of what lies ahead of the
United States........ better heed this and pray about it and share it.

THIS DEFINITELY WARRANTS LOOKING INTO. THE UNITED STATES WAS FOUNDED,
'ONE NATION UNDER GOD'. ALMIGHTY GOD, NOT THE GOD OF THE KORAN.

Faith-Hope_Love
27-08-2008, 04:05 AM
THIS DEFINITELY WARRANTS LOOKING INTO. THE UNITED STATES WAS FOUNDED,
'ONE NATION UNDER GOD'. ALMIGHTY GOD, NOT THE GOD OF THE KORAN


Actually it was not, the United States clearly (and it's the only country in the world with a 'written' constitution to do so) separates church and state, and makes it very clear that the nation was founded by its People, constitution written and ratified by its people (in contrast to English monarchy where the King ruled by 'divine right').

The phrase "one nation under god" was added to the pledge of allegiance, not the constitution mind you, in 1954, I think the United States was founded a long time before 1954.

I'm not an American myself so by all means correct me if I'm wrong here.

churchill2
27-08-2008, 06:00 AM
THIS DEFINITELY WARRANTS LOOKING INTO. THE UNITED STATES WAS FOUNDED,
'ONE NATION UNDER GOD'. ALMIGHTY GOD, NOT THE GOD OF THE KORAN


Actually it was not, the United States clearly (and it's the only country in the world with a 'written' constitution to do so) separates church and state, and makes it very clear that the nation was founded by its People, constitution written and ratified by its people (in contrast to English monarchy where the King ruled by 'divine right').

The phrase "one nation under god" was added to the pledge of allegiance, not the constitution mind you, in 1954, I think the United States was founded a long time before 1954.

I'm not an American myself so by all means correct me if I'm wrong here.

i don't care alot about the isssue of religion and iam sure that most of americans don't also care about it
but i believe that i can't vote for someone who might have a connection with a certain ideology iam having awar against it

Faith-Hope_Love
30-08-2008, 11:09 AM
i don't care alot about the isssue of religion and iam sure that most of americans don't also care about it
but i believe that i can't vote for someone who might have a connection with a certain ideology iam having awar against it

Hi churchill2,

your reply raises two questions for me,

first, it appears to me that americans very much care about the religion of anybody they vote for public office (president, congressman or judge), or at least that's how it appears to a foreigner like me, where are you looking from and how do you see it?

second, how is obama's schooling (which he had no hand in choosing) more important than his adult choices?

btw, I'm not american as i mentioned earlier so i don't have a horse in this race, but it seems to me that if the war on terrorism is your priority then there are plenty of 'good' reasons to not vote for obama, without having to speculate about his childhood and how it will affect his decisions. Daniel Pipes explicitly avoids this speculation in his article towards the end.


By The way, could you please tell me what "Eine kleine Traene von KOPTEN ist so teuer" means? Google can't translate it (MM:}

churchill2
30-08-2008, 07:20 PM
it appears to me that americans very much care about the religion of anybody they vote
hope u read my post before u reply
i said
i don't care alot about the isssue of religion and iam sure that most of americans don't also care about it
the civilized world now realized that islam is not a relgion but is a barbaric ideology which should be eliminated so iam sure that the americans will not allow to be controlled by a man who might have a connection with this ideology

churchill2
30-08-2008, 07:22 PM
By The way, could you please tell me what "Eine kleine Traene von KOPTEN ist so teuer" means? Google can't translate it
in german it means
a small tear from the copts is soo expensive

Faith-Hope_Love
31-08-2008, 04:33 AM
i don't care alot about the isssue of religion and iam sure that most of americans don't also care about it


Hi Churchill2

I did actually read that part of your post before I replied and was openly disagreeing with it (as well as asking you why it appears to you that American's don't pay attention to somebody's religion, I would still like to hear your point of view on that)

The kind of behaviour that you see in American politicians during campaigns like going to churches for photo ops, advertising their links with their spiritual advisers, and making references to god in their speeches is pretty common in America, by comparison this sort of behaviour would look very odd where I am (Australia). I don't think that this is for nought, they obviously understand that by advertising their religion, especially christianity, they'll win more votes.


As for your point about obama's link with islamism, I still think it's very strained. I'm sure I could look up the biographies of some relatively inoffensive people and draw the same 'connection' between them and barbaric ideologies.

For example take Pope Shenouda, I could say with some certainty that his schooling was similarly close to islam as obama's, Pope Shenouda having been schooled in Egypt and Obama in Indonesia, both islamic countries where the quran is part of the school syllabus whether you're a muslim or not.

Or take Pope Benedict who, not by his own choice, was a member of the Hitler youth, but it would very unfair to say that he sympathises with Nazis.

This is why I think obama's schooling, which he had no hand in choosing, is irrelevant to the discussion.

Ibrahim Al Copti
31-08-2008, 11:55 PM
Dear Faith-Hope_Love

thanks for your thoughtful posts
you said

For example take Pope Shenouda, I could say with some certainty that his schooling was similarly close to islam as obama's, Pope Shenouda having been schooled in Egypt and Obama in Indonesia, both islamic countries where the quran is part of the school syllabus whether you're a muslim or not.

Or take Pope Benedict who, not by his own choice, was a member of the Hitler youth, but it would very unfair to say that he sympathises with Nazis.

I think there is still a difference between these Pops and Obama

it is the parent effect

Pop Shinoda's family was not of Muslims
and Pop Benedict's family was not of Nazi's believers

But Obama's father was a practicing Muslim
so claiming he was doing that against his will is not accurate

Another point is critical: we do not blame Obama for having a Muslim father, but lying about it to achieve his ambitions

Third and final point is that having a Muslim heritage is definitely going to be an issue if he is planning to go after terrorists who happened to be devout Muslims ...
this is very dangerous and his empathy, bias and soft hand are always going to be factors affecting his judgment

God Bless

Faith-Hope_Love
01-09-2008, 01:42 AM
Hi Ibrahim

On your first point, the parent effect.

I didn't go as far as saying that barack did anything 'against his will', I'm only saying that any child has their school choices made for them by their parents and somewhat by society, I don't know that this happened in spite of resistance by a 6 year old and I'm not claiming that.

If you have a coptic community around you try asking a handful of older people who went to primary school in egypt whether they learnt the koran in school or not (it is learnt and memorised as literature in arabic class, and studied as a theology in religion class, so even christians would have exposure to islamic teaching in school in their arabic classes).

This, plus the fact that only one of his parents was muslim (his dad) and that his dad disappeared from his life from childhood and forever more, and that he was raised by his mother and grandmother, non-muslims, pretty much wipes out the parent effect argument.

Onto your second point about lying about his dad, can you please give me a reference for that. I wouldn't put it above any politician, including this one, to tell convenient lies to get ahead but I need some proof like a speech of his, or excerpt from his book or even a statement made by his campaign managers and not corrected by him, any original source will do.

On your last point which I think is his suitability to fight the war on terrorism, I seriously think that this obama family issue is so trivial that nobody should be wasting their time with it. If the war on terrorism was my priority, and personally it would be if i was an american voter, then I have plenty of positive reasons to vote for the other fellow, but no reason to either vote for obama or not. Maybe when he starts picking his team I can make a judgement about them but obama himself has almost no record that I can go by, and sketchy family history will just not do as a way of making a decision about a man.

What do you think ?

Ibrahim Al Copti
01-09-2008, 05:15 AM
Dear Faith-Hope_Love

Hi Again
If you have a coptic community around you try asking a handful of older people who went to primary school in egypt whether they learnt the koran in school or not (it is learnt and memorised as literature in arabic class, and studied as a theology in religion class, so even christians would have exposure to islamic teaching in school in their arabic classes).

I think u still miss my point
no Coptic would learn the Koran as a Muslim
Barak practiced Islam as a Muslim
as Daniel Pipes put in his article

The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. "We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi. … Obama's younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only "for big communal events," not every Friday

So he was a practicing Muslim when he was a child

on your comment
This, plus the fact that only one of his parents was muslim (his dad) and that his dad disappeared from his life from childhood and forever more, and that he was raised by his mother and grandmother, non-muslims, pretty much wipes out the parent effect argument.

This is a very subjective argument
because we do not know how much effect his father had on him
If he managed to write a book on his FATHER

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images/misc/Dreamstwo.jpg

it is reasonable to think that HE had an impact on his life

Onto your second point about lying about his dad, can you please give me a reference for that.
sorry it is my mistake
I was misunderstood
I did not mean lying about his dad
but about "NEVER" being a Muslim
http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/11/12/obama_has_never_been_a_muslim_1.php#obama-not-muslim

That claim is not accurate, if he registered as a Muslim and prayed in a Mosque, celebrated

You could say instead "I practiced Islam but never meant anything to me "

But "never_been_a_Muslim"
ans " never prayed in a mosque"
for me that is a lie .. a big one too )hayP)


If the war on terrorism was my priority, and personally it would be if i was an american voter, then I have plenty of positive reasons to vote for the other fellow, but no reason to either vote for obama or not.

in my opinion, an American voter shouldn't take chances and leave a critical issue like that to possibilities


by the way, I have hard times coping with McCain's policy .. especially the economic one
But better save than sorry (sml9) [concerning B.O. of course]

God bless ssssssssss2

Faith-Hope_Love
01-09-2008, 08:30 AM
Hi Ibrahim

I think this phrase of yours is much too honest and straight for most politicians :)

You could say instead "I practiced Islam but never meant anything to me "

My impression is that obama was pretty much a skeptic who didn't take his religion at all seriously, of course you can't say something like that and survive an election, so instead he said 'never was a muslim', 'never practiced', etc... But I don't make any distinctions between 'massaging the truth', as they call it, and outright lying, the guy lied as far am I'm concerned.

I think you also repeat my own sentiment when you say that the extent of his dad's influence is subjective, you and I just differ in outcome, I think it wouldn't count for much in my decisions, precisely because I don't have the evidence I need, you would say 'don't risk it', that's fair enough.

Faith-Hope_Love
01-09-2008, 11:11 AM
Oh and by the way Ibrahim,

There's something that I've been assuming the whole time but never explicitly said here (just to avoid stating the bleeding obvious), and that is that islam (the religion) and islamism/islamofascism (the ideology) are not the same thing in practice.

I think I ought to make that explicit because I would be horrified if some muslim friend of mine read this thread and thought that I equated the two.

The difference in my view is one between private religious belief, (islam) and one that must assert itself on others, even if by force
(islamism).

But this is a purely practical statement, it remains for others to argue whether islam in theory can live alongside any other religion, I won't get involved in that discussion.

Of course all religions have to assert themselves on non-believers to some degree and it's a matter of degree but the practical distinction here is clear enough for me.

Ibrahim Al Copti
06-09-2008, 05:51 PM
Dear Faith

can u elaborate more on this part

There's something that I've been assuming the whole time but never explicitly said here (just to avoid stating the bleeding obvious), and that is that islam (the religion) and islamism/islamofascism (the ideology) are not the same thing in practice.

May be I do not see the obvious

God bless +++

Faith-Hope_Love
07-09-2008, 11:49 AM
Hi Ibrahim

By the bleeding obvious I meant the difference between islam as a faith, and the relatively recent ideology of islamofascism. And it is recent, you can trace its roots back to a handful of 20th century egyptians like sayyed al kutb and ayman al zawahiri (yes, THAT ayman al zawahiri). But I had to mention this because it appears to me that more than a few people in this thread equate the two, thinking that all muslims are terrorists (either actually terrorists or potentially terrorists).

If all muslims in the world (all 1+ billion of them) were terrorists, the world would look very different to how it looks today.

That's not to say that islam, the faith, isn't aggressive in pushing itself on 'infidels', I'm only saying that this doesn't universally happen through violence. And I think the distinction is not only an honest one, but a useful one.

For instance when I oppose sharia courts in my country (or in america on in canada) I don't do that because i think it's a slippery slope to terrorism, I oppose sharia courts on their own merit. My fellow countrymen, and women, deserve better than the kind of medieval caprice that the sharia courts can call justice.

I think this is more honest, and also more fair, than to brand people terrorists.


Where the distinction between the faith and terrorism starts to fail however is in places like egypt. Look at the events in abu fana monastery and the way that authorities either let crime happen or just refuse to do anything about it and the difference between plain old islam, and islamoascism becomes less clear.

But this isn't really the case in the west.

Ibrahim Al Copti
07-09-2008, 06:51 PM
Dear Faith

And it is recent, you can trace its roots back to a handful of 20th century egyptians like sayyed al kutb and ayman al zawahiri (yes, THAT ayman al zawahiri)

Do you why they started the Muslim brotherhood movement ?

If all muslims in the world (all 1+ billion of them) were terrorists, the world would look very different to how it looks today.

nobody would say that ...

But the obvious to me that you are confusing Islam as an ideology and Muslims how much they stick to that ideology

difference between islam as a faith, and the relatively recent ideology of islamofascism

Islamofascism is a western term trying to make sense of all the Islamic violence happening

But actually, Islam as an ideology that condone terror and violence , whether you call it Fascism, Nazism, ......etc

and u said it

That's not to say that islam, the faith, isn't aggressive in pushing itself on 'infidels',

I totally agree

I'm only saying that this doesn't universally happen through violence. And I think the distinction is not only an honest one, but a useful one.

Of course, violence is not the only tool to force ideology on some people
There are many other ways
including deceit (Al-taqiyya (http://www.hauns.com/~DCQu4E5g/koran5.html))
Dhimmitude (http://www.dhimmitude.org/)
Slavery (http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/slavery.htm)

So, I agree with you that violence and terror are not the only means ...
They are part of a big package
fortunately enough, not all Muslims, especially non-Arabic speaking, practice the whole package

the closer and deeper u get inside the Islamic ideology, the more you get closer to more ugly parts of the package

God bless +++

Faith-Hope_Love
07-09-2008, 10:42 PM
Hi Ibrahim

well it's true that the koran has calls to violence in it, but I still give weight to practice over theory.

If you read the old testament as literally as you read the koran then jews today would have a duty to do violent things like stoning people for not observing the sabbath, and stoning kids for being disobedient. This is not actually done, I wouldn't go calling judaism 'a barbaric ideology'.

You can read the new testament, especially st paul, and still come out respecting women, but only after some heavy interpretation. Which is partly why I don't think that christianity is 'a mysogynistic ideology', but i still slightly cringe when i hear it being read at weddings.

And you can't really blame muslims (or give them any credit) for what's written in their book, very few people in history have had the luxury of writing their own scrpture.

But you say that islam itself is violent, and that the majority, who don't practice violence are somehow non-perfect or non-complete muslims, and this could be proven from the book, but what do you say to hundreds of millions who believe that they are just fine muslims without violence, and they're not aspiring to jihad, that they're wrong? Should they perhaps be teaching their children violence so that their kids can be better muslims than their parents? should they give up islam altogether? or is there an option im missing here.

Oh yes, and why did they start the muslim brotherhood ?

Ibrahim Al Copti
08-09-2008, 10:28 AM
Dear Faith

well it's true that the koran has calls to violence in it, but I still give weight to practice over theory.

This is your opinion, but unfortunately not the opinion of most of the Muslim clergy

I admit, there are some peaceful sects within islam like sufi's ... but not Sunnis or Shiites

You can read the new testament, especially st paul, and still come out respecting women, but only after some heavy interpretation.

I agree with the first half
but the "heavy interpretation" part is very subjective


And you can't really blame muslims (or give them any credit) for what's written in their book, very few people in history have had the luxury of writing their own scrpture.

Who said that I blame Muslims .... absolutely not
I blame Islam the ideology
Muslims are just victims by inheritance

But you say that islam itself is violent,

That not exactly what I said
I said

Islam as an ideology that condone terror and violence

But Islam is not only violence

who don't practice violence are somehow non-perfect or non-complete muslims,

Where did I say that
I think u better quote from my post than saying things that I didn't say

Oh yes, and why did they start the muslim brotherhood

This is from their website

حكم الجهاد

وبالنسبة لحكم الجهاد في الإسلام فالمعلوم أن أهل العلم مجتهدين ومقلدين سلفيين وخلفيين أجمعوا على أن الجهاد فرض كفاية على الأمة الإسلامية لنشر الدعوة وفرض عين لدفع هجوم الكفار عليها ولقد مرت على الأمة الإسلامية فترة والمسلمين مستذلون لغيرهم قد ديست أرضهم وانتهكت حرماتهم وحكمهم الكفار وأماتوا روح الجهاد عندهم ولكن هذه الحال أوجبت على كل مسلم أن يتجهز وينطوي على نية الجهاد وإعداد العدة للتحرر ولذلك عندما أنشأ الإمام الشهيد حسن البنا جماعة الإخوان المسلمين لإعادة بناء الدولة الإسلامية وعلى رأسها الخلافة الإسلامية حرص على بعث روح الجهاد في النفوس فأطلق على دعوة الإخوان دعوة الحق والقوة والحرية وجعل شارتها (سيفان بينهما مصحف وتحتها لفظ وأعدوا)رمزا للآية الكريمة .{وأعدوا لهم ما استطعتم من قوة ومن رباط الخيل }.ثم نجد من هتاف الإخوان ضمن الشعارات ((الجهاد سبيلنا ))((والموت في سبيل الله أسمى أمانينا )).
http://www.daawa-info.net/books1.php?id=3974&bn=157&page=11



Translated (~the red font):
martyr Imam Hassan al-Banna established the Muslim Brotherhood [COLOR = "Red"] for Muslims to rebuild the Islamic state, and foremost Islamic Caliphate[/ COLOR]. So he was keen to send The spirit of jihad in the [Muslims] hearts ....

So, Islamofascism (as you call it) is actually based on a trial for the comeback of the Islamic empire (based on Islamic ideology) that ruled the old and middle ages with brutality

So, I still don't see the difference (or the obvious)

God bless +++

Faith-Hope_Love
08-09-2008, 11:39 AM
Hi Ibrahim

It looks like you and I have crossed purposes, in so many way, in only one post, that it's almost funny. I've put words in your mouth, in most cases unintentionally, and i'm sorry for that.

You said that

This is your opinion, but unfortunately not the opinion of most of the Muslim clergy

I admit, there are some peaceful sects within islam like sufi's ... but not Sunnis or Shiites

True true, and it seems that you and I agree that a reasonable method to judge islam is by what it does not what it says (or not only what it says) because there are plenty of contradictions within islam and between different sects of it.

On my view of the new testament being occasionally sexist, yes, it is a subjective judgement, absolutely. That's not fact, that's my opinion.

Who said that I blame Muslims .... absolutely not
I blame Islam the ideology
Muslims are just victims by inheritance

It looks like you and I agree on this as well.
Here I was either misunderstood, or I just flatly put words in your mouth.

I really didn't mean to put words in your mouth there, I'm sorry for that. I was using the word 'blame' in a passive sense. Rather than using the verb 'blame', I should probably have used the more passive third person 'can't be blamed, can't be credited' or 'not responsible for writing', or just write what I wrote differently.

Next,

But you say that islam itself is violent,

That not exactly what I said
I said

إقتباس:
Islam as an ideology that condone terror and violence

Same diff. If a religion, political point of view or any other ideology condones violence then it is in itself violent, even if that's only one of its many values, but I have to apologise here for, seemingly, putting words in your mouth, again i didn't mean to.

Finally

who don't practice violence are somehow non-perfect or non-complete muslims,
Where did I say that
I think u better quote from my post than saying things that I didn't say


This you definitely didn't say, and I again apologise for putting words in your mouth, but I synthesised this from two things you said earlier. I'll tell you how I did that and you tell me where i went wrong.

1. islam is a violent ideology, (or just condones violence)
2. not all muslims may practice violence but that's only a detail, islam condones violence

It seems to me that a person that practices more of their religion's ideals is a more complete muslim, or more perfect muslim. Kind of like the way that people want to complete or improve themselves in christianity by practicing christian things.

Faith-Hope_Love
08-09-2008, 12:05 PM
Hi Ibrahim

Responding to what you said about the origin of the muslim brotherhood (and all the other terrorist groups and thugs that I collectively call islamofascists)

you said


So, Islamofascism (as you call it) is actually based on a trial for the comeback of the Islamic empire (based on Islamic ideology) that ruled the old and middle ages with brutality

So, I still don't see the difference (or the obvious)

The difference is that some muslims, the group within muslims that i'm most concerned about, just want to get on with life and be left alone like anybody else and, left to their own devices, wouldn't want to establish a muslim caliphate.

A second group is the one that wants to go further and make islam a political power or establish a caliphate, and they usually want to do this whether the non muslims like it or not, and yes there are plenty of things in muslim tradition and in the koran that give them their justification.

The first group I think ought to be treated with respect just like anybody else and I mean specifically that if somebody, like obama (the original point of this thread) is thought to be a muslim, then that doesn't automatically mean that he's sympathetic to terrorists, or that he would be ineffective in the role of fighting terrorism for the reason of being muslim alone.

But that second group of muslims can answer either to reason or to the 82nd airborne.

Ibrahim Al Copti
08-09-2008, 12:47 PM
dear faith

The first group I think ought to be treated with respect just like anybody else and I mean specifically that if somebody, like obama (the original point of this thread)

I cannot agree more got:)(
But still these moderate Mulsims need to help the Islamic theology to become more tolerant
They bear some responsibilty to their religion

God bless +++

HAMOUKAS
07-12-2008, 07:28 AM
PETITION FOR PUBLIC RELEASE OF
BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA'S BIRTH CERTIFICATE

http://www.wnd.com/images/page1/wnd_logo.gif

To: Electoral College, Congress of the United States, Federal Elections Commission,
U.S. Supreme Court, President of the United States, other controlling legal authorities


Whereas, by requirement of the United States Constitution, Article 2, Section 1, no one can be sworn into office as president of the United States without being a natural born citizen;

Whereas, there is sufficient controversy within the citizenry of the United States as to whether presidential election winner Barack Obama was actually born in Hawaii as he claims;

Whereas, Barack Obama has refused repeated calls to release publicly his entire Hawaiian birth certificate, which would include the actual hospital that performed the delivery;

Whereas, lawsuits filed in several states seeking only proof of the basic minimal standard of eligibility have been rebuffed;

Whereas, Hawaii at the time of Obama's birth allowed births that took place in foreign countries to be registered in Hawaii;

Whereas, concerns that our government is not taking this constitutional question seriously will result in diminished confidence in our system of free and fair elections;

SIGN THE PETITION

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=81550

Total Signatures: 200,000
ssssssssss10

HAMOUKAS
08-12-2008, 03:10 PM
Court won't review Obama's eligibility to serve

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1133/63/3/1078815623/n1078815623_199696_2437.jpg


The Supreme Court has turned down an emergency appeal from a New Jersey man who says President-elect Barack Obama is ineligible to be president because he was a British subject at birth.

The court did not comment on its order Monday rejecting the call by Leo Donofrio of East Brunswick, N.J., to intervene in the presidential election. Donofrio says that since Obama had dual nationality at birth -- his mother was American and his Kenyan father at the time was a British subject -- he cannot possibly be a "natural born citizen," one of the requirements the Constitution lists for eligibility to be president.

Donofrio also contends that two other candidates, Republican John McCain and Socialist Workers candidate Roger Calero, also are not natural-born citizens and thus ineligible to be president.

At least one other appeal over Obama's citizenship remains at the court. Philip J. Berg of Lafayette Hill, Pa., argues that Obama was born in Kenya, not Hawaii as Obama says and the Hawaii secretary of state has confirmed. Berg says Obama also may be a citizen of Indonesia, where he lived as a boy. Federal courts in Pennsylvania have dismissed Berg's lawsuit.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-obama-birth-certificate1dec08,0,7258812.story

(bay:))opeesopees

HAMOUKAS
21-02-2009, 06:42 AM
The power of the cartoonist

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45498000/jpg/_45498435_cartoon_ap466.jpg

New York state Senator Eric Adams was among those protesting at the cartoon


"Sometimes a cartoon is just a cartoon," the New York Post wrote in an editorial apologising for the offence caused by an image of policemen shooting a chimpanzee dead.

"They'll have to find someone else to write the next stimulus bill," one cop tells the other.

Uproar greeted its publication on Wednesday, with demonstrators objecting to what they regarded as a racist depiction of President Barack Obama.

The Post responded by saying it was merely meant to mock an "ineptly written" bill.

The line that it was "just" a cartoon, though, has scandalised cartoonists.

Kevin "Kal" Kallaugher, editorial cartoonist for the Economist for the last 30 years, described the remark as "sad".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7902768.stm

http://krmg.com/images/2009/02/monkey_l.jpg

HAMOUKAS
13-04-2009, 07:44 AM
استطلاع للراى:(11%) من الأمريكيين يعتقدون أن أوباما مسلم

http://www.freecopts.net/arabic/arabic/images/blog/hussein%20obama.bmp

http://photos-h.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v364/63/3/1078815623/n1078815623_157791_8179.jpg

واشنطن - أظهر استطلاع للرأي في الولايات المتحدة أن واحدا من كل عشرة أمريكيين يعتقدون أن الرئيس الأمريكي باراك أوباما مسلم، وذلك بعد مرور شهرين على أدائه اليمين الدستورية على الإنجيل.

وأشار الاستطلاع الذي أجرته مؤسسة "بيو ريسرتش" وشمل 1308 أشخاص إلى أن البروتستانت الإنجيليين البيض والجمهوريين كانوا في مقدمة من يعتقد أن الرئيس باراك حسين أوباما مسلم، حيث إن خمس الذين يعتقدون أن أوباما مسلم كانوا من الإنجيليين، بينما كان 17% من الجمهوريين يتبنون الأمر ذاته.

وفى السياق ذاته فإن نسبة من قال إن أوباما مسيحي سواء من الإنجيليين البيض أو الجمهوريين لم يتعد النصف؛ فقد بلغت نسبة من قال من الإنجيليين البيض إن أوباما مسلم نحو 38% بينما بلغت تلك النسبة في صفوف الجمهوريين نحو 46 %.

وحتى بين الديمقراطيين لم تتجاوز نسبة من قال إن أوباما مسيحي 55% بينما أكد 7% منهم أن الرئيس الأمريكي أوباما مسلم، بحسب ما أوضحه الاستطلاع.

http://news.maktoob.com/image1862385_630_700/630X700.jpg

http://photos-e.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v276/63/3/1078815623/n1078815623_97484_2885.jpg

HAMOUKAS
13-11-2009, 06:44 AM
Buyer's Remorse, Democrat Arrogance

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs096.snc3/16332_1237890102238_1078815623_767388_1212636_n.jp g

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/photo/2009/11/04/20091103-RESULTS/31312147.JPG


Last week's big Republican victories in New Jersey and Virginia proved what the Obama Administration's apologists in the liberal mainstream media have been avoiding telling you -- the bloom is off the Barack Obama rose.

As hard as the White House and leftist pundits try to spin Election Day's results, there's no arguing the big change in voter attitudes toward the Obama Agenda.

In 2008, Barack Obama carried Virginia by 6%, and the Democrat stronghold of New Jersey by 14%.

Last week? New Jersey's GOP candidate for governor Chris Christie bested incumbent Democrat Jon Corzine by 4 percentage points, and in Virginia, Republican Bob McDonnell defeated his Democrat opponent by 18 points -- that's a 24% turnaround!

Friend, Barack Obama won election last year, aided by his claims of moderation and transparency, and the huge cover he received from the adoring liberal media. Many Americans gave the relatively unknown first term Illinois senator the benefit of the doubt, and are now coming to regret it.

Instead of centrist policies, they have seen an extreme far-left assault on private enterprise and personal liberties. From pork barrel "stimulus" to unprecedented government spending and debt, and auto company takeovers to the present attempt at a socialist seizure of health care.

In New Jersey and Virginia, the voters have realized their mistake -- and sent a clear message to the Obama Democrats. When polled in both states about their votes for the Republican candidate, 68% and 74% respectively agreed that they were sending a message to the Obama team that they were "unhappy with the direction they are taking Washington and the country."

But are the Democrats listening? Not a chance. Instead, despite losing in two states where Democrats had controlled the governor's mansion for years, Nancy Pelosi arrogantly declared "We won!" Then she and her leftist followers dismissed the clear will of the people and rammed their socialist health care takeover scheme through the House of Representatives on Saturday.

Our victories last week are a great start, but as long as the radical Obama-Pelosi liberals are determined to force their socialist agenda on the American people, our work isn't done.

You can help our Party spread the word about the Obama-Pelosi Democrats' disastrous, arrogant plans, and help us recruit the commonsense, conservative Republican candidates today who will defeat them in next year's crucial mid-term elections.

http://www.gop.com/images/newemailheader.jpg

sandrawilson
18-01-2017, 07:00 AM
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