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  #1  
قديم 01-04-2008
The Joker The Joker غير متصل
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puzzl Was Barack Obama a Muslim?

"If I were a Muslim I would let you know," Barack Obama has said, and I believe him. In fact, he is a practicing Christian, a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ. He is not now a Muslim.

But was he ever a Muslim or seen by others as a Muslim? More precisely, might Muslims consider him a murtadd (apostate), that is, a Muslim who converted to another religion and, therefore, someone whose blood may be shed?


Barack Obama at the Smoky Row Coffee Shop in Oskaloosa, Iowa.

The candidate for president of the United States has delivered two principal statements in reply. His campaign website carries a statement dated Nov. 12 with the headline, "Barack Obama Is Not and Has Never Been a Muslim," followed by: "Obama never prayed in a mosque. He has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian." Then, on Dec. 22, in the unlikely setting of the Smoky Row Coffee Shop in Oskaloosa, Iowa, as he munched on pumpkin pie and drank tea with four locals, Obama provided more detail took on this topic than before. When asked to explain his Muslim heritage, he replied:

My father was from Kenya, and a lot of people in his village were Muslim. He didn't practice Islam. Truth is he wasn't very religious. He met my mother. My mother was a Christian from Kansas, and they married and then divorced. I was raised by my mother. So, I've always been a Christian. The only connection I've had to Islam is that my grandfather on my father's side came from that country. But I've never practiced Islam. … For a while, I lived in Indonesia because my mother was teaching there. And that's a Muslim country. And I went to school. But I didn't practice. But what I do think it does is it gives me insight into how these folks think, and part of how I think we can create a better relationship with the Middle East and that would help make us safer is if we can understand how they think about issues.

These statements raise two questions: What is Obama's true connection to Islam and what implications might this have for an Obama presidency?

Was Obama Ever a Muslim?
"I've always been a Christian," said Obama, focusing on his own personal lack of practice of Islam as a child to deny any connection to Islam. But Muslims do not see practice as key. For them, that he was born to a line of Muslim males makes him born a Muslim. Further, all children born with an Arabic name based on the H-S-N trilateral root (Hussein, Hassan, and others) can be assumed to be Muslim, so they will understand Obama's full name, Barack Hussein Obama, to proclaim him a born Muslim.

More: family and friends considered him as a child to be Muslim. In "Obama Debunks Claim About Islamic School," Nedra Pickler of the Associated Press wrote on January 24, 2007, that

Obama's mother, divorced from Obama's father, married a man from Indonesia named Lolo Soetoro, and the family relocated to the country from 1967-71. At first, Obama attended the Catholic school, Fransiskus Assisis, where documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim , the religion of his stepfather. The document required that each student choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when registering – Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant.

Asked about this, Obama communications director Robert Gibbs responded by indicating to Pickler that

he wasn't sure why the document had Obama listed as a Muslim. "Senator Obama has never been a Muslim."

Two months later, Paul Watson of the Los Angeles Times (available online in a Baltimore Sun reprint) reported that the Obama campaign had retreated from that absolute statement and instead issued a more nuanced one: "Obama has never been a practicing Muslim." The Times looked into the matter further and learned more about his Indonesian interlude:

His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both schools he attended. That registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion class.

The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. "We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi. … Obama's younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only "for big communal events," not every Friday.

Recalling Obama's time in Indonesia, the Times account contains quotes that Obama "went to the mosque," and that he "was Muslim."

Summarized, available evidence suggests Obama was born a Muslim to a non-practicing Muslim father and for some years had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father. At some point, he converted to Christianity. It appears false to state, as Obama does, "I've always been a Christian" and "I've never practiced Islam." The campaign appears to be either ignorant or fabricating when it states that "Obama never prayed in a mosque."

Implications of Obama's Conversion
Obama's conversion to another faith, in short, makes him a murtadd.

That said, the punishment for childhood apostasy is less severe than for the adult version. As Robert Spencer points out, "according to Islamic law an apostate male is not to be put to death if he has not reached puberty (cf. ‘Umdat al-Salik o8.2; Hidayah vol. II p. 246). Some, however, hold that he should be imprisoned until he is of age and then ‘invited' to accept Islam, but officially the death penalty for youthful apostates is ruled out."

On the positive side, were Obama prominently charged with apostasy, that would uniquely raise the issue of a Muslim's right to change religion, taking a topic on the perpetual back-burner and placing it front and center, perhaps to the great future benefit of those Muslims who seek to declare themselves atheists or to convert to another religion.

But would Muslims seeing Obama as a murtadd significantly affect an Obama presidency? The only precedent to judge by is that of Carlos Saúl Menem, the president of Argentina from 1989 to 1999. The son of two Muslim Syrian immigrants and husband of another Syrian-Argentine, Zulema Fátima Yoma, Menem converted to Roman Catholicism. His wife said publicly that Menem left Islam for political reasons—because Argentinean law until 1994 required the president of the country to be a member of the Church. From a Muslim point of view, Menem's conversion is worse than Obama's, having been done as an adult. Nonetheless, Menem was not threatened or otherwise made to pay a price for his change of religion, even during his trips to majority-Muslim countries, Syria in particular.

It is one thing to be president of Argentina in the 1990s, however, and another to be president of the United States in 2009. One must assume that some Islamists would renounce him as a murtadd and would try to execute him. Given the protective bubble surrounding an American president, though, this threat presumably would not make much difference to his carrying out his duties.

More significantly, how would more mainstream Muslims respond to him, would they be angry at what they would consider his apostasy? That reaction is a real possibility, one that could undermine his initiatives toward the Muslim world.

Source: http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5286

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  #2  
قديم 01-04-2008
The Joker The Joker غير متصل
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the question I've been asking myself about, why he would lie about practicing Islam?
and is a liar fit for US presidency ?


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  #3  
قديم 24-08-2008
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Who is Barack Obama ?, US presidential candidate

Who is Barack Obama ?, US presidential candidate


Probable U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama was born in
Honolulu , Hawaii , to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM from
Nyangoma-Kogel , Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white ATHIEST from Wichita ,
Kansas.

Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii. When Obama was two
years old, his parents divorced. His father returned to Kenya. His
mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia. When
Obama was 6 years old, the family relocated to Indonesia. Obama
attended a MUSLIM school in Jakarta. He also spent two years in a
Catholic school.

Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He is
quick to point out that, 'He was once a Muslim, but that he also
attended Catholic school.'

Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear that Obama's
introduction to Islam came via his father, and that this influence was
temporary at best. In reality, the senior Obama returned to Kenya soon
after the divorce, and never again had any direct influence over his
son's education.

Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann Dunham,
introduced his, stepson to Islam. Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi
school in Jakarta
.

Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim
terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world. Since it
is politically expedient to be a CHRISTIAN when seeking Major public
office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined the United
Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim background.


ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into office he DID NOT use the
Holy Bible, but instead the Koran
.

Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential
candidacy.
The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US from the inside
out, what better way to start than at the highest level - through the
President of the United States, one of their own!!!!

Please forward to everyone you know. Would you want this man leading
the free workd......?


If you do not ever forward anything else, please forward this to all
your contacts.........this is very scary to think of what lies ahead of the
United States........ better heed this and pray about it and share it.

THIS DEFINITELY WARRANTS LOOKING INTO. THE UNITED STATES WAS FOUNDED,
'ONE NATION UNDER GOD'. ALMIGHTY GOD, NOT THE GOD OF THE KORAN.
__________________
We will never be quite till we get our right.

كلمة الصليب عند الهالكين جهالة و اما عندنا نحن المخلصين فهي قوة الله "كور 1 -1:18"


( سيظل القران اعجاز لغوى فى نظر المسلمين الجهلاء فقط.
لان معظمهم لايستطيع الكتابه بدون اخطاء املائيه )


آخر تعديل بواسطة Zagal ، 24-08-2008 الساعة 11:46 PM
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  #4  
قديم 27-08-2008
Faith-Hope_Love Faith-Hope_Love غير متصل
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THIS DEFINITELY WARRANTS LOOKING INTO. THE UNITED STATES WAS FOUNDED,
'ONE NATION UNDER GOD'. ALMIGHTY GOD, NOT THE GOD OF THE KORAN



Actually it was not, the United States clearly (and it's the only country in the world with a 'written' constitution to do so) separates church and state, and makes it very clear that the nation was founded by its People, constitution written and ratified by its people (in contrast to English monarchy where the King ruled by 'divine right').

The phrase "one nation under god" was added to the pledge of allegiance, not the constitution mind you, in 1954, I think the United States was founded a long time before 1954.

I'm not an American myself so by all means correct me if I'm wrong here.
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  #5  
قديم 27-08-2008
churchill2 churchill2 غير متصل
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مشاركة: Was Barack Obama a Muslim?

إقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة Faith-Hope_Love مشاهدة مشاركة
THIS DEFINITELY WARRANTS LOOKING INTO. THE UNITED STATES WAS FOUNDED,
'ONE NATION UNDER GOD'. ALMIGHTY GOD, NOT THE GOD OF THE KORAN



Actually it was not, the United States clearly (and it's the only country in the world with a 'written' constitution to do so) separates church and state, and makes it very clear that the nation was founded by its People, constitution written and ratified by its people (in contrast to English monarchy where the King ruled by 'divine right').

The phrase "one nation under god" was added to the pledge of allegiance, not the constitution mind you, in 1954, I think the United States was founded a long time before 1954.

I'm not an American myself so by all means correct me if I'm wrong here.
i don't care alot about the isssue of religion and iam sure that most of americans don't also care about it
but i believe that i can't vote for someone who might have a connection with a certain ideology iam having awar against it
__________________
Eine kleine Traene von KOPTEN ist so teuer

علينا ان ننتقل من التفكير فيما نتمني ان يفعلة لنا العدو ,الي ما يجب ان نفعلة لنجبر العدو علي ان ينفذ ما نتمناة
واظن ان اول ما سنجنية من هذا التفكير هو البدء بتكوين تنظيمات قبطية مسلحة
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  #6  
قديم 30-08-2008
Faith-Hope_Love Faith-Hope_Love غير متصل
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i don't care alot about the isssue of religion and iam sure that most of americans don't also care about it
but i believe that i can't vote for someone who might have a connection with a certain ideology iam having awar against it


Hi churchill2,

your reply raises two questions for me,

first, it appears to me that americans very much care about the religion of anybody they vote for public office (president, congressman or judge), or at least that's how it appears to a foreigner like me, where are you looking from and how do you see it?

second, how is obama's schooling (which he had no hand in choosing) more important than his adult choices?

btw, I'm not american as i mentioned earlier so i don't have a horse in this race, but it seems to me that if the war on terrorism is your priority then there are plenty of 'good' reasons to not vote for obama, without having to speculate about his childhood and how it will affect his decisions. Daniel Pipes explicitly avoids this speculation in his article towards the end.


By The way, could you please tell me what "Eine kleine Traene von KOPTEN ist so teuer" means? Google can't translate it
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  #7  
قديم 30-08-2008
churchill2 churchill2 غير متصل
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إقتباس:
it appears to me that americans very much care about the religion of anybody they vote
hope u read my post before u reply
i said
إقتباس:
i don't care alot about the isssue of religion and iam sure that most of americans don't also care about it
the civilized world now realized that islam is not a relgion but is a barbaric ideology which should be eliminated so iam sure that the americans will not allow to be controlled by a man who might have a connection with this ideology
__________________
Eine kleine Traene von KOPTEN ist so teuer

علينا ان ننتقل من التفكير فيما نتمني ان يفعلة لنا العدو ,الي ما يجب ان نفعلة لنجبر العدو علي ان ينفذ ما نتمناة
واظن ان اول ما سنجنية من هذا التفكير هو البدء بتكوين تنظيمات قبطية مسلحة
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  #8  
قديم 30-08-2008
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إقتباس:
By The way, could you please tell me what "Eine kleine Traene von KOPTEN ist so teuer" means? Google can't translate it
in german it means
a small tear from the copts is soo expensive
__________________
Eine kleine Traene von KOPTEN ist so teuer

علينا ان ننتقل من التفكير فيما نتمني ان يفعلة لنا العدو ,الي ما يجب ان نفعلة لنجبر العدو علي ان ينفذ ما نتمناة
واظن ان اول ما سنجنية من هذا التفكير هو البدء بتكوين تنظيمات قبطية مسلحة
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  #9  
قديم 31-08-2008
Faith-Hope_Love Faith-Hope_Love غير متصل
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i don't care alot about the isssue of religion and iam sure that most of americans don't also care about it

Hi Churchill2

I did actually read that part of your post before I replied and was openly disagreeing with it (as well as asking you why it appears to you that American's don't pay attention to somebody's religion, I would still like to hear your point of view on that)

The kind of behaviour that you see in American politicians during campaigns like going to churches for photo ops, advertising their links with their spiritual advisers, and making references to god in their speeches is pretty common in America, by comparison this sort of behaviour would look very odd where I am (Australia). I don't think that this is for nought, they obviously understand that by advertising their religion, especially christianity, they'll win more votes.


As for your point about obama's link with islamism, I still think it's very strained. I'm sure I could look up the biographies of some relatively inoffensive people and draw the same 'connection' between them and barbaric ideologies.

For example take Pope Shenouda, I could say with some certainty that his schooling was similarly close to islam as obama's, Pope Shenouda having been schooled in Egypt and Obama in Indonesia, both islamic countries where the quran is part of the school syllabus whether you're a muslim or not.

Or take Pope Benedict who, not by his own choice, was a member of the Hitler youth, but it would very unfair to say that he sympathises with Nazis.

This is why I think obama's schooling, which he had no hand in choosing, is irrelevant to the discussion.
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  #10  
قديم 31-08-2008
الصورة الرمزية لـ Ibrahim Al Copti
Ibrahim Al Copti Ibrahim Al Copti غير متصل
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thu مشاركة: Was Barack Obama a Muslim?


Dear Faith-Hope_Love

thanks for your thoughtful posts
you said

إقتباس:
For example take Pope Shenouda, I could say with some certainty that his schooling was similarly close to islam as obama's, Pope Shenouda having been schooled in Egypt and Obama in Indonesia, both islamic countries where the quran is part of the school syllabus whether you're a muslim or not.

Or take Pope Benedict who, not by his own choice, was a member of the Hitler youth, but it would very unfair to say that he sympathises with Nazis.
I think there is still a difference between these Pops and Obama

it is the parent effect

Pop Shinoda's family was not of Muslims
and Pop Benedict's family was not of Nazi's believers

But Obama's father was a practicing Muslim
so claiming he was doing that against his will is not accurate

Another point is critical: we do not blame Obama for having a Muslim father, but lying about it to achieve his ambitions

Third and final point is that having a Muslim heritage is definitely going to be an issue if he is planning to go after terrorists who happened to be devout Muslims ...
this is very dangerous and his empathy, bias and soft hand are always going to be factors affecting his judgment

God Bless
__________________
اَلَّذِي لَمْ يُشْفِقْ عَلَى ابْنِهِ بَلْ بَذَلَهُ لأَجْلِنَا أَجْمَعِينَ كَيْفَ لاَ يَهَبُنَا أَيْضاً مَعَهُ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ؟ (رومية 8: 32)

مسيحيو الشرق لأجل المسيح
مسيحيو الشرق لأجل المسيح (2)
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  #11  
قديم 01-09-2008
Faith-Hope_Love Faith-Hope_Love غير متصل
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Hi Ibrahim

On your first point, the parent effect.

I didn't go as far as saying that barack did anything 'against his will', I'm only saying that any child has their school choices made for them by their parents and somewhat by society, I don't know that this happened in spite of resistance by a 6 year old and I'm not claiming that.

If you have a coptic community around you try asking a handful of older people who went to primary school in egypt whether they learnt the koran in school or not (it is learnt and memorised as literature in arabic class, and studied as a theology in religion class, so even christians would have exposure to islamic teaching in school in their arabic classes).

This, plus the fact that only one of his parents was muslim (his dad) and that his dad disappeared from his life from childhood and forever more, and that he was raised by his mother and grandmother, non-muslims, pretty much wipes out the parent effect argument.

Onto your second point about lying about his dad, can you please give me a reference for that. I wouldn't put it above any politician, including this one, to tell convenient lies to get ahead but I need some proof like a speech of his, or excerpt from his book or even a statement made by his campaign managers and not corrected by him, any original source will do.

On your last point which I think is his suitability to fight the war on terrorism, I seriously think that this obama family issue is so trivial that nobody should be wasting their time with it. If the war on terrorism was my priority, and personally it would be if i was an american voter, then I have plenty of positive reasons to vote for the other fellow, but no reason to either vote for obama or not. Maybe when he starts picking his team I can make a judgement about them but obama himself has almost no record that I can go by, and sketchy family history will just not do as a way of making a decision about a man.

What do you think ?
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  #12  
قديم 01-09-2008
الصورة الرمزية لـ Ibrahim Al Copti
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Dear Faith-Hope_Love

Hi Again
إقتباس:
If you have a coptic community around you try asking a handful of older people who went to primary school in egypt whether they learnt the koran in school or not (it is learnt and memorised as literature in arabic class, and studied as a theology in religion class, so even christians would have exposure to islamic teaching in school in their arabic classes).
I think u still miss my point
no Coptic would learn the Koran as a Muslim
Barak practiced Islam as a Muslim
as Daniel Pipes put in his article

إقتباس:
The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. "We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi. … Obama's younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only "for big communal events," not every Friday
So he was a practicing Muslim when he was a child

on your comment
إقتباس:
This, plus the fact that only one of his parents was muslim (his dad) and that his dad disappeared from his life from childhood and forever more, and that he was raised by his mother and grandmother, non-muslims, pretty much wipes out the parent effect argument.
This is a very subjective argument
because we do not know how much effect his father had on him
If he managed to write a book on his FATHER



it is reasonable to think that HE had an impact on his life

إقتباس:
Onto your second point about lying about his dad, can you please give me a reference for that.
sorry it is my mistake
I was misunderstood
I did not mean lying about his dad
but about "NEVER" being a Muslim
http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck...ama-not-muslim

That claim is not accurate, if he registered as a Muslim and prayed in a Mosque, celebrated

You could say instead "I practiced Islam but never meant anything to me "

But "never_been_a_Muslim"
ans " never prayed in a mosque"
for me that is a lie .. a big one too


إقتباس:
If the war on terrorism was my priority, and personally it would be if i was an american voter, then I have plenty of positive reasons to vote for the other fellow, but no reason to either vote for obama or not.
in my opinion, an American voter shouldn't take chances and leave a critical issue like that to possibilities


by the way, I have hard times coping with McCain's policy .. especially the economic one
But better save than sorry [concerning B.O. of course]

God bless

__________________
اَلَّذِي لَمْ يُشْفِقْ عَلَى ابْنِهِ بَلْ بَذَلَهُ لأَجْلِنَا أَجْمَعِينَ كَيْفَ لاَ يَهَبُنَا أَيْضاً مَعَهُ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ؟ (رومية 8: 32)

مسيحيو الشرق لأجل المسيح
مسيحيو الشرق لأجل المسيح (2)

آخر تعديل بواسطة Ibrahim Al Copti ، 01-09-2008 الساعة 05:18 AM
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  #13  
قديم 01-09-2008
Faith-Hope_Love Faith-Hope_Love غير متصل
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Hi Ibrahim

I think this phrase of yours is much too honest and straight for most politicians :)

You could say instead "I practiced Islam but never meant anything to me "

My impression is that obama was pretty much a skeptic who didn't take his religion at all seriously, of course you can't say something like that and survive an election, so instead he said 'never was a muslim', 'never practiced', etc... But I don't make any distinctions between 'massaging the truth', as they call it, and outright lying, the guy lied as far am I'm concerned.

I think you also repeat my own sentiment when you say that the extent of his dad's influence is subjective, you and I just differ in outcome, I think it wouldn't count for much in my decisions, precisely because I don't have the evidence I need, you would say 'don't risk it', that's fair enough.
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قديم 01-09-2008
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مشاركة: Was Barack Obama a Muslim?

Oh and by the way Ibrahim,

There's something that I've been assuming the whole time but never explicitly said here (just to avoid stating the bleeding obvious), and that is that islam (the religion) and islamism/islamofascism (the ideology) are not the same thing in practice.

I think I ought to make that explicit because I would be horrified if some muslim friend of mine read this thread and thought that I equated the two.

The difference in my view is one between private religious belief, (islam) and one that must assert itself on others, even if by force
(islamism).

But this is a purely practical statement, it remains for others to argue whether islam in theory can live alongside any other religion, I won't get involved in that discussion.

Of course all religions have to assert themselves on non-believers to some degree and it's a matter of degree but the practical distinction here is clear enough for me.
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قديم 06-09-2008
الصورة الرمزية لـ Ibrahim Al Copti
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مشاركة: Was Barack Obama a Muslim?

Dear Faith

can u elaborate more on this part

إقتباس:
There's something that I've been assuming the whole time but never explicitly said here (just to avoid stating the bleeding obvious), and that is that islam (the religion) and islamism/islamofascism (the ideology) are not the same thing in practice.
May be I do not see the obvious

God bless +++
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اَلَّذِي لَمْ يُشْفِقْ عَلَى ابْنِهِ بَلْ بَذَلَهُ لأَجْلِنَا أَجْمَعِينَ كَيْفَ لاَ يَهَبُنَا أَيْضاً مَعَهُ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ؟ (رومية 8: 32)

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