Was Barack Obama a Muslim?

[Ibrahim Al Copti]

Dear Faith-Hope_Love

Hi Again

If you have a coptic community around you try asking a handful of older people who went to primary school in egypt whether they learnt the koran in school or not (it is learnt and memorised as literature in arabic class, and studied as a theology in religion class, so even christians would have exposure to islamic teaching in school in their arabic classes).

I think u still miss my point
no Coptic would learn the Koran as a Muslim
Barak practiced Islam as a Muslim
as Daniel Pipes put in his article

The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. "We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi. … Obama's younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only "for big communal events," not every Friday

So he was a practicing Muslim when he was a child

on your comment

This, plus the fact that only one of his parents was muslim (his dad) and that his dad disappeared from his life from childhood and forever more, and that he was raised by his mother and grandmother, non-muslims, pretty much wipes out the parent effect argument.

This is a very subjective argument
because we do not know how much effect his father had on him
If he managed to write a book on his FATHER



it is reasonable to think that HE had an impact on his life

Onto your second point about lying about his dad, can you please give me a reference for that.

sorry it is my mistake
I was misunderstood
I did not mean lying about his dad
but about "NEVER" being a Muslim
http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck...ama-not-muslim

That claim is not accurate, if he registered as a Muslim and prayed in a Mosque, celebrated

You could say instead "I practiced Islam but never meant anything to me "

But "never_been_a_Muslim"
ans " never prayed in a mosque"
for me that is a lie .. a big one too

If the war on terrorism was my priority, and personally it would be if i was an american voter, then I have plenty of positive reasons to vote for the other fellow, but no reason to either vote for obama or not.

in my opinion, an American voter shouldn't take chances and leave a critical issue like that to possibilities


by the way, I have hard times coping with McCain's policy .. especially the economic one
But better save than sorry [concerning B.O. of course]

God bless

[Faith-Hope_Love]

Hi Ibrahim

I think this phrase of yours is much too honest and straight for most politicians :)

You could say instead "I practiced Islam but never meant anything to me "

My impression is that obama was pretty much a skeptic who didn't take his religion at all seriously, of course you can't say something like that and survive an election, so instead he said 'never was a muslim', 'never practiced', etc... But I don't make any distinctions between 'massaging the truth', as they call it, and outright lying, the guy lied as far am I'm concerned.

I think you also repeat my own sentiment when you say that the extent of his dad's influence is subjective, you and I just differ in outcome, I think it wouldn't count for much in my decisions, precisely because I don't have the evidence I need, you would say 'don't risk it', that's fair enough.

[Faith-Hope_Love]

Oh and by the way Ibrahim,

There's something that I've been assuming the whole time but never explicitly said here (just to avoid stating the bleeding obvious), and that is that islam (the religion) and islamism/islamofascism (the ideology) are not the same thing in practice.

I think I ought to make that explicit because I would be horrified if some muslim friend of mine read this thread and thought that I equated the two.

The difference in my view is one between private religious belief, (islam) and one that must assert itself on others, even if by force
(islamism).

But this is a purely practical statement, it remains for others to argue whether islam in theory can live alongside any other religion, I won't get involved in that discussion.

Of course all religions have to assert themselves on non-believers to some degree and it's a matter of degree but the practical distinction here is clear enough for me.

[Ibrahim Al Copti]

Dear Faith

can u elaborate more on this part

There's something that I've been assuming the whole time but never explicitly said here (just to avoid stating the bleeding obvious), and that is that islam (the religion) and islamism/islamofascism (the ideology) are not the same thing in practice.

May be I do not see the obvious

God bless +++

[Faith-Hope_Love]

Hi Ibrahim

By the bleeding obvious I meant the difference between islam as a faith, and the relatively recent ideology of islamofascism. And it is recent, you can trace its roots back to a handful of 20th century egyptians like sayyed al kutb and ayman al zawahiri (yes, THAT ayman al zawahiri). But I had to mention this because it appears to me that more than a few people in this thread equate the two, thinking that all muslims are terrorists (either actually terrorists or potentially terrorists).

If all muslims in the world (all 1+ billion of them) were terrorists, the world would look very different to how it looks today.

That's not to say that islam, the faith, isn't aggressive in pushing itself on 'infidels', I'm only saying that this doesn't universally happen through violence. And I think the distinction is not only an honest one, but a useful one.

For instance when I oppose sharia courts in my country (or in america on in canada) I don't do that because i think it's a slippery slope to terrorism, I oppose sharia courts on their own merit. My fellow countrymen, and women, deserve better than the kind of medieval caprice that the sharia courts can call justice.

I think this is more honest, and also more fair, than to brand people terrorists.


Where the distinction between the faith and terrorism starts to fail however is in places like egypt. Look at the events in abu fana monastery and the way that authorities either let crime happen or just refuse to do anything about it and the difference between plain old islam, and islamoascism becomes less clear.

But this isn't really the case in the west.

[Ibrahim Al Copti]

Dear Faith

And it is recent, you can trace its roots back to a handful of 20th century egyptians like sayyed al kutb and ayman al zawahiri (yes, THAT ayman al zawahiri)

Do you why they started the Muslim brotherhood movement ?

If all muslims in the world (all 1+ billion of them) were terrorists, the world would look very different to how it looks today.

nobody would say that ...

But the obvious to me that you are confusing Islam as an ideology and Muslims how much they stick to that ideology

difference between islam as a faith, and the relatively recent ideology of islamofascism

Islamofascism is a western term trying to make sense of all the Islamic violence happening

But actually, Islam as an ideology that condone terror and violence , whether you call it Fascism, Nazism, ......etc

and u said it

That's not to say that islam, the faith, isn't aggressive in pushing itself on 'infidels',

I totally agree

I'm only saying that this doesn't universally happen through violence. And I think the distinction is not only an honest one, but a useful one.

Of course, violence is not the only tool to force ideology on some people
There are many other ways
including deceit (Al-taqiyya)
Dhimmitude
Slavery

So, I agree with you that violence and terror are not the only means ...
They are part of a big package
fortunately enough, not all Muslims, especially non-Arabic speaking, practice the whole package

the closer and deeper u get inside the Islamic ideology, the more you get closer to more ugly parts of the package

God bless +++

[Faith-Hope_Love]

Hi Ibrahim

well it's true that the koran has calls to violence in it, but I still give weight to practice over theory.

If you read the old testament as literally as you read the koran then jews today would have a duty to do violent things like stoning people for not observing the sabbath, and stoning kids for being disobedient. This is not actually done, I wouldn't go calling judaism 'a barbaric ideology'.

You can read the new testament, especially st paul, and still come out respecting women, but only after some heavy interpretation. Which is partly why I don't think that christianity is 'a mysogynistic ideology', but i still slightly cringe when i hear it being read at weddings.

And you can't really blame muslims (or give them any credit) for what's written in their book, very few people in history have had the luxury of writing their own scrpture.

But you say that islam itself is violent, and that the majority, who don't practice violence are somehow non-perfect or non-complete muslims, and this could be proven from the book, but what do you say to hundreds of millions who believe that they are just fine muslims without violence, and they're not aspiring to jihad, that they're wrong? Should they perhaps be teaching their children violence so that their kids can be better muslims than their parents? should they give up islam altogether? or is there an option im missing here.

Oh yes, and why did they start the muslim brotherhood ?

[Ibrahim Al Copti]

Dear Faith

well it's true that the koran has calls to violence in it, but I still give weight to practice over theory.

This is your opinion, but unfortunately not the opinion of most of the Muslim clergy

I admit, there are some peaceful sects within islam like sufi's ... but not Sunnis or Shiites

You can read the new testament, especially st paul, and still come out respecting women, but only after some heavy interpretation.

I agree with the first half
but the "heavy interpretation" part is very subjective

And you can't really blame muslims (or give them any credit) for what's written in their book, very few people in history have had the luxury of writing their own scrpture.

Who said that I blame Muslims .... absolutely not
I blame Islam the ideology
Muslims are just victims by inheritance

But you say that islam itself is violent,

That not exactly what I said
I said

Islam as an ideology that condone terror and violence

But Islam is not only violence

who don't practice violence are somehow non-perfect or non-complete muslims,

Where did I say that
I think u better quote from my post than saying things that I didn't say

Oh yes, and why did they start the muslim brotherhood

This is from their website

حكم الجهاد

وبالنسبة لحكم الجهاد في الإسلام فالمعلوم أن أهل العلم مجتهدين ومقلدين سلفيين وخلفيين أجمعوا على أن الجهاد فرض كفاية على الأمة الإسلامية لنشر الدعوة وفرض عين لدفع هجوم الكفار عليها ولقد مرت على الأمة الإسلامية فترة والمسلمين مستذلون لغيرهم قد ديست أرضهم وانتهكت حرماتهم وحكمهم الكفار وأماتوا روح الجهاد عندهم ولكن هذه الحال أوجبت على كل مسلم أن يتجهز وينطوي على نية الجهاد وإعداد العدة للتحرر ولذلك عندما أنشأ الإمام الشهيد حسن البنا جماعة الإخوان المسلمين لإعادة بناء الدولة الإسلامية وعلى رأسها الخلافة الإسلامية حرص على بعث روح الجهاد في النفوس فأطلق على دعوة الإخوان دعوة الحق والقوة والحرية وجعل شارتها (سيفان بينهما مصحف وتحتها لفظ وأعدوا)رمزا للآية الكريمة .{وأعدوا لهم ما استطعتم من قوة ومن رباط الخيل }.ثم نجد من هتاف الإخوان ضمن الشعارات ((الجهاد سبيلنا ))((والموت في سبيل الله أسمى أمانينا )).
http://www.daawa-info.net/books1.php...bn=157&page=11

Translated (~the red font):

martyr Imam Hassan al-Banna established the Muslim Brotherhood [COLOR = "Red"] for Muslims to rebuild the Islamic state, and foremost Islamic Caliphate[/ COLOR]. So he was keen to send The spirit of jihad in the [Muslims] hearts ....

So, Islamofascism (as you call it) is actually based on a trial for the comeback of the Islamic empire (based on Islamic ideology) that ruled the old and middle ages with brutality

So, I still don't see the difference (or the obvious)

God bless +++